Curse

reaper with no name · Dec 28, 2010, 02:56 AM // 02:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Well Barrage is decent in places like UW where you have groups of 5 or 6 grasping darknesses and/or aatxes in adjacent range; melee groups; Battle for Lion's arch. Incendiary arrows is better everywhere else, perhaps even if mobs don't burn. To match 84 damage (2 seconds of burning on 3 targets) you need to be pushing 4-5 targets with barrage every 5 seconds. The thing is barrage is 1 cooldown and activation, so hitting 2-3 targets every time is enough (+17 to 20 damage). You only need to hit one target 5 times (with +17 or above, which is 12 Marks) actually, 2-3 targets when you factor in preparations since if you use Ignite arrows then you drop marks and if you use Expert Focus or Read the Wind the bonus damage is about +9-10 damage.

Barrage + Splinter Weapon is essentially Fireball (I mean after HM armor, Fireball does ~40ish anyway) on 5 recharge.

Incendiary Arrows + Splinter Weapon is essentially Liquid Flame/Searing Flames on 5 recharge.

The problem with Incendiary Arrows is it's recharge.

Look at it this way: since you can only use it once every 5 seconds, and there's not really much else the ranger has that is nearby range, for the most part your build is limited to one target, with the occasional nearby range AoE attack (unless you're bringing volley, in which case you might as well go all the way and just use barrage). Ergo, Incendiary Arrows is about as effective for AoE as a Paragon with holy spear that consistently hits a summoned creature. In fact, the comparison is almost uncanny. But such a paragon would still not be considered an AoE character; it would be considered a character that occasionally gets off an AoE attack.

Incendiary Arrows is simply not spammable enough for it's nearby range to matter. In practice, your average effective AoE range is still going to be adjacent or none at all.

LifeInfusion · Dec 29, 2010, 01:52 AM // 01:52

I use Barrage on my heroes, with a choking gas ranger with Practiced stance as sideboard (for when hexes like panic don't work and there are long casts). I rarely use rangers in general.

As for Incendiary arrows, I suggested a recharge drop.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Feedb...endiary_Arrows

I disagree with your assessment of Incendiary arrows though. Spirit Rift is on 5 cooldown, Clumsiness/Invoke Lightning are on 8 cooldown, Chain Lightning is on 6 cooldown, Fireball is on 7 cooldown, Deep Freeze is on 15 cooldown, Ice spikes is on 10 cooldown, for example. They're still AoEs. Just because something doesn't have 1 cooldown like barrage or 2 cooldown like Searing Flames doesn't change that.

Holy spear is conditional.

reaper with no name · Dec 29, 2010, 12:33 PM // 12:33

Another thing to consider is that Incendiary Arrows simply does not synergize as well as Barrage with what Rangers do: triggering physical synergies on multiple foes at a distance. Incendiary Arrows can only do it once per 5 seconds. During it's recharge, you're limited to Volley for AoE, which takes twice as long to recharge as Barrage. As far as physical synergies are concerned, you would have been better off with Barrage.

And if you're not using physical synergies, then why is the ranger there in the first place? Sure, an Incendiary Arrows Ranger might seem good if there's no physical synergies and enemies won't bunch up enough for Barrage, but in a situation like that you shouldn't be using a Ranger to begin with; you should be using an AoE caster of some sort. By the same token, the only situation a Barrage Monk might seem useful in (when there is no Barrage Ranger) is the same situation in which they shouldn't be there in the first place.

Spammability doesn't matter for casters because the power of their AoE does not depend on their ability to trigger physical synergies. The Ranger's AoE does.

LifeInfusion · Dec 29, 2010, 03:23 PM // 15:23

But AOEs on casters are adjacent for the most part save for stuff like E-surge, Mistrust, Wandering eye, Desecrate Enchantments, Ravenous Gaze, Putrid bile, Signet of corruption (lol damage), Searing flames + other ele skills.

reaper with no name · Dec 29, 2010, 03:47 PM // 15:47

And yet the profession that is full of nearby stuff, elementalists, is considered worthless for damage. Why? Because having nearby range is not worth the loss of damage as opposed to adjacent damage.

Now replace "damage" with "triggers for physical damage synergies" and "elementalist" with "Incendiary Arrows".

Amy Awien · Dec 29, 2010, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

... triggering physical synergies ...

Physical synergies don't work too well with H&H anyway, unless I have missed a working team setup for 'physical synergies' with a primary ranger PC and H&H. Wich makes the whole 'physical synergies' argument somewhat pointless, or at least only of a very limited applicability.

There are different team formations, you can not apply 8 player builds and tactics on a H&H situation.

Quote:

...if you're not using physical synergies, then why is the ranger there in the first place? ...

Because it happens to be your primary pc and you can't switch primaries. This is the Ranger subforum, a ranger primary is a given and any arguments posted here as to why using one are pointless and off-topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

And yet the profession that is full of nearby stuff, elementalists, is considered worthless for damage. Why? Because having nearby range is not worth the loss of damage as opposed to adjacent damage.

Everyone's drooling over the nearby stuff mesmers got in the last profession update. Ele-skill damage is mediocre in HM, not because nearby does less damage then adjacent, but because their damage, unlike most other skill damage, is not armor ignoring.

LifeInfusion · Dec 29, 2010, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

Ele-skill damage is mediocre in HM, not because nearby does less damage then adjacent, but because their damage, unlike most other skill damage, is not armor ignoring.

This is why you don't run Eles in HM for damage. Not because nearby range doesn't matter.

For the longest time Searing Flames Elementalists were used for 100 damage in nearby range. It has much less damage in Hard mode (~30-40, 70-80 if you're lucky) and little to no utility, on a fragile enchantment and burning based setup. When burning and fire damage resist came about, the build suffered and went into oblivion, but DoA doesn't have that so SF was run there.

You had Mind Blast + Rodgort's Bars that are fragile enchantment based utility bars also. 8 cooldown is more than the stuff we have now, and when your Rodgort's hits for 40 damage there's no reason not to just run Desecrate enchantments.

Earth has 20 cooldown-30 cooldown for DOTs. Anything that has DoT better have awesome utility (see Unsteady Ground, Eruption), rather than tacked on damage (Sandstorm).

Most of the other AoEs have long cooldown and as such are not viable without Glyph of Renewal or Assassin's Promise. Echo comes close but it's not nearly as good.

reaper with no name · Dec 29, 2010, 08:43 PM // 20:43

We'll have to disagree on this issue, then. It's only going to start going around in circles from here.